這個段落同時提供英文翻譯，供基金會技術人員參考。 An English translation is provided for this section. Section title: Regarding a previous petition to delay the deployment of Vector 2022.
在英文維基百科默認部署Vector 2022造成重大爭議的同時中文維基百科的編者自發組織了上述的聯署。以下提供當時聯署時提供的意見。 A petition to delay the deployment of Vector 2022 was raised by editors, around mid-January, the same time when Vector 2022 became the default skin of English Wikipedia and faced a backlash. Opinions raised at that time are provided below.
已經被解決的技術關切 (Addressed technical concerns)
頁面目錄的繁簡轉換問題（T306862）； Glyph conversion problem on ToC (T306862);
尚未被解決的技術關切 (Unaddressed technical concerns)
CSS可能需要進行重新適配； CSS pages may need considerable amount of rewrite;
小工具也可能需要進行重新適配； Gadgets too;
設計關切 (Design concerns)
目錄放置在左欄主菜單下方，在頁面最頂端時甚至完全看不到目錄； ToC is placed under the main menu in left side-bar. When at page's top, it is hardly visible;
「不穩定、不美觀、不實用」，但沒有具體指明問題所在； General comments like "unstable", "ugly" and "not practical";
頁面的留白太多了； Too much whitespace;
（User:百戰天蟲） 不如Timeless簡約； Vector 2022 takes a minimalism design, but not as good as Timeless. Timeless should be set as sitewide default skin instead;
（User:Z7504） 強烈反對基金會不給未登入用戶切換皮膚的選擇！ STRONG PROTEST against WMF not providing skin choices to unregistered users;
（User:Erquanmen） 工具欄不應與主菜單分開並放置在右側； Tool bar should not move out of the main menu and put to the right column;
（User:Erquanmen）切換語言需要點擊的次數變多了； It takes more clicks to switch to another language;
（User:A1Cafel） 跨語言鏈接也不應該與姊妹項目的鏈接分離； Links to sister projects should not be moved away from language switcher;
他第一段是不是說「計劃在三周內將Vector 2022設為此wiki的默認皮膚」，那還有什麼討論的。--安憶Talk2023年4月14日 (五) 07:38 (UTC) If WMF is really forcing the deployment in three weeks, all protests fall into deaf ears.回覆
(－)反對 for site stability and glyph conversion sake, I would hope to ensure everything works before the switch. It will also be best if local scripts are updated and designed for Vector 2022 before the switch.--1233 （T / C） 2023年4月14日 (五) 07:43 (UTC)回覆
(＝)Neutralny I translated a lot related to Vector 2022, but I didn't mean to promote this change. I don't think Vector 2022 is good enough to make it default on zh.wikipedia.org. The reason is simple, the new skin has many problems, such as the design concerns above. So maybe WMF should fix the relevant questions first, and then more people will be willing to talk about default setting. We shouldn't give non-logged-in users a skin that many logged-in users won't choose. But if WMF is willing to solve these problems, I think such a skin that is friendly to readers (though not so friendly to editors) should still be acceptable. ——暁月凜奈 (留言)2023年4月14日 (五) 11:02 (UTC)回覆
Apologies for not posting in Chinese! Thank you for your comments and the conversations on the new skin. We noticed that a few of you had questions around the long-standing bug in which language conversion did not work for the table of contents and the new sidebar. We just wanted to confirm that this issue was fixed in T306862, and this is why we believe the skin is ready to use on this wiki now.
Another issue we saw raised was concerns with current gadgets. We have tested default gadgets (the ones enabled for all users) and can confirm these will continue to work after the deployment. The main issue we've noticed so far that needs fixing is the overlap of the conversion notice with the width toggle, both available at the bottom of the page. We would recommend either revising the gadget or using the width toggle only after the banner is dismissed.
We also wanted to note that, with the new table of contents, users can access the top of the page (by selecting the Beginning 序言 link) and the bottom (by accessing the bottom section of the ToC) throughout their reading experience. This might make the top/bottom of the page gadget redundant. However, it's up to you as the community of this wiki to decide whether the gadget will still be necessary.
We're available and ready to reply to questions and discuss the skin throughout the deployment process. We also wanted to encourage you to explore documentation linked in our message opening the discussion. There, you will find many answers to questions you may have.
Hello! I'm not sure if I have fully understood your discussion, so I'd only like to make a small point about the reason for the change. Have you maybe checked out the information about data we've provided above? The full versions of our research and data are available on MediaWiki.org, on pages listed there, dedicated to single features. The section "實驗發現以及實驗結論" above is just a TLDR.
Anyway, each of the new features (the new search, TOC, sticky header, etc.) was tested on a range of different wikis: Wikipedias and sister projects, big and small, RTL and LTR, Latin and non-Latin. According to this data, the changes improve the usability of the skin, and make the interface more intuitive and welcoming.
Strong oppose. I've never used the 2022 version in several other wikis. since the WMF people are here, I'll say more, the current vector is 5-10 years behind the current design style, true, but the design of the new vector is worse to me, I mean, either you make it more high-tech and learn from scientific institutions, or you try to preserve more elements of the old vector. Vector 2022 feels like a short video version of Wikipedia to me every time, and from my experience every time something tries to move closer to a short video, there are all kinds of epistemological problems. Of course, your data does show that 87% of users change to Vector 2022, but what about active users? I mean, if you count all users, then most of users who only edit several times may just skip this question, but experienced user have to choose according to their habits of editing and I think they are more likely to reflect the general will of deep-rooted editors. In addition, Chinese Wikipedia guidelines for newcomers and code have never been as clear as they are in other languages, and if you don't take these into account, it is foreseeable that the issues will worsen and enter the Chinese Wikipedia-related discussion boards frequently. 鼠標移至此看中文原文。ときさきくるみ2023年4月20日 (四) 03:07 (UTC)回覆
Hi - thanks for your comments. I just wanted to clarify that the 87% of editors who decide to keep the skin is for active editors (those with more than 5 edits in the past year). Hope this is helpful. Let us know if you have other questions around the data and we can try to point you to the right report. We also welcome you to explore our documentation on the project page and its subpages.--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年4月25日 (二) 22:24 (UTC)回覆
Cześć, dear User:SGrabarczuk (WMF). I've done some reconsidering, and now I give a neutral to weak support. I have noticed that some of the features I originally complained about not having (white space, right column) have been installed, I don't know if I didn't notice it before or what, now my only two complaints, one is that it's too white, your gray test result is very good so if the installation is something similar then this concern will also disappear, the second is that I feel the layout is still too compact/dense, leaving too little space for text, I have this feeling in both the English Wikipedia and the Chinese Wikipedia. 鼠標移至此看中文原文。 --ときさきくるみ2023年5月2日 (二) 00:52 (UTC)回覆
@MilkyDefer：First of all, do we have something like an advertisement? If not, why do we need to leave such a large section on the right side empty? Second, as far as I know, one of the goals of Wikipedia was to create an encyclopedia that could be written by everyone and with a higher degree of rigor than EB, so why do we have to follow them? Finally, according to the About page of the English Wikipedia, at least the users are expected to research via Wikipedia, so why can't we benchmark it against academic institutions? ときさきくるみ2023年4月20日 (四) 22:16 (UTC)回覆
Hello MilkyDefer! Thank you for making the point about the colors. In the process of developing the skin, we have asked a randomized group of editors about the borders and backgrounds. There were two popular options: one without any borders and colors which we ultimately chose, and one with more visual separation between regions which some editors have been asking for. Recently, we have built a prototype and consulted many volunteers about this (see our message here and preview the alternative version here). Note that the latter version has some important tradeoffs we described in the message linked in the previous sentence. In about 2 weeks, we'll be performing an A/B test which will help us choose between the white and gray (more on that here). We'd like to confirm that the skin is ready to be the default regardless. Thanks,--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年4月25日 (二) 22:31 (UTC)回覆
Vector2022 fails to adjust its width properly when viewed on a mobile device, regardless of landscape or portrait orientation. This results in extremely squeezed paragraphs, especially when there is an infobox or image thumbnail on the side. (Please don't try to convince me to switch to the mobile view; I still loathe it to this day!) -- 同舟（論 · 歷） 2023年4月20日 (四) 08:57 (UTC)回覆
Hi @SGrabarczuk_(WMF)： I'm a long-time Wikipedia reader (over 15 years), and I don't have an account, and I don't want one.
Reading English and Chinese Wikipedia accounts for 40% of my time reading other Wikipedias (and the other 60% of the time I explore on Wikipedias in other languages), because Wikipedia in different languages always has some differences in the description of a thing, such as the description of some wars in WWII, you will find that the German Wikipedia is more prominent in describing the work done by the Nazi officers in the war. Reading in multiple languages allowed me to understand a story more objectively and comprehensively. so I'm a multilingual reader.
To be honest as a multilingual reader, one of the reasons I don't like Vector 2022 at the moment is that switching languages has an extra step, so you can understand this does affect me.
I've been involved in a discussion on this on the English Wikipedia, but apparently WMF's changes to switching languages didn't satisfy me.
In addition, I also use browser translation to read Wikipedia in languages that I don't understand. On complex Wikipedia pages, Vector 2022 will cause strange typography after translation. I know it's not your fault, but it's another reason I don't like it compared to old skins that didn't have any issues.
The most important reason is that I don't think Wikipedia has a one-click way to give readers like me the option to switch skins (I know you can add ?useskin=vector after the URL, but it's complicated, especially if you have to do it every time you go to a new page, Wikipedia has many, many hyperlinks).
It's also worth noting that I don't use javascript and cookie on any wiki sites, apparently one of the reasons for this is that you guys have done a good job, even without these basic features that modern browsers have, Wikipedia is still formatted and displayed very correctly. But I think with the increasing complexity of Vector 2022 and future skins, the reliance on javascript will increase, eventually forcing me to have to enable javascript for Wikipedia, which I don't want to do.
Actually, I think from talking to the Chinese community, you may have noticed that people here are conservative, maybe they are, but in fact everyone has their own reasons for not using Vector 2022. All right, It's just my two cents, and my vote is "NO" (－)反對, thank you. 141.193.231.133（留言） 2023年4月26日 (三) 14:20 (UTC)回覆
注意，我的IP是代理IP，我現在將停止使用它，任何未來編輯都與我無關。（Please note that my IP is a proxy IP, I will stop using it now, any future edits cannot represent me.）141.193.231.133（留言） 2023年4月26日 (三) 14:57 (UTC)回覆
@SGrabarczuk (WMF)，Hello. Thankyou to telling us about the new vector. However, this idea did not got many supports from our chinese wiki. Also, as only myself's opinion about the new vector2022, it's space to read and edit is also smaller than the vector2010, which might be still okay in devices like mac, but for phones or Ipads, the space in left and right is too small. Also this idea to change the defalt skin does not even get majority supports from the chinese wiki, but WMF still says that "We will change in in two days later" which is TOTALLY NONSENCE. As my opinion, it is not good for both reading and editing. Please do not change this unless the majority for people support this, thankyou.--FK8437（留言） 2023年5月3日 (三) 10:44 (UTC)回覆
請問基金會是不是打算忽略社群意見強行部署更新？另外，還請上面那位一直嚷嚷「獨裁社群」的同志閉嘴——你也是所謂「獨裁社群」的一份子，建議別自己罵到自己頭上——這件事完全是基金會（可能要）一意孤行，社群根本是被害方，現在反過來檢討社群是什麼意思？到底是誰「眼瞎」？—— Eric Liu 創造は生命（留言・留名・學生會）2023年5月5日 (五) 01:32 (UTC)回覆
胡言亂語，不知所云，不予置評。長期而言，介面是應該更新，但是就現階段來說，基金會要強行部署外觀則是不明智的。只有社群指出的種種問題得到解決，才有可能建立推進部署的民意基礎。我想新外觀存在的種種問題，社群都明瞭於心，並十分努力的整理並嘗試提出解決方案。閣下若想逞口舌之快，大可離開這「獨裁爛社群」，去別的地方。既然要留在這裡，就請少耍一點嘴皮子，甚至公然扯謊稱「社群硬要強行通過」，或對他人作人身攻擊。勿謂言之不預也。—— Eric Liu 創造は生命（留言・留名・學生會）2023年5月5日 (五) 03:28 (UTC)回覆
Thank you again for your comments and your participation in this conversation. We recognize that there are still a lot of open-ended questions from the volunteers here to discuss. With this in mind, we would like to propose the following:
We continue discussing issues and collaborate on making fixes to the gadgets that users have issues with. Our engineers are available to offer advice on fixes, which can then be made by community volunteer developers.
We push the deployment back to June 5th. This will give us more time to talk about the motivations around certain changes in the skin, to try out, as well as to discuss the data and other research we have which gives us the confidence that these changes are improvements.
We’d also like to respond and address some of your questions and concerns. Let us know if you have any questions on anything below.
Why is there a main menu and a separate page tools menu?
One of the main goals of the project was to make it easier to understand the purpose for which different tools and menus can be used. In the Vector legacy skin, there was no separation between tools which act on the whole site (such as the main page link) and tools which are related to the page itself (such as What links here). This was confusing to readers and new editors as they did not know what to expect when they clicked on a given link. By clearly separating page tools from wiki-wide navigation, we make it easier to understand what each set of tools does. Learn more about this feature here.
Why did interlanguage links move?
In the Vector legacy skin, interlanguage links were available at the bottom of the left menu. This made them difficult to find for readers and new editors. Many readers were not aware they could switch languages from Wikipedia (or any sister project, for that matter) and would instead close the site and use an external search engine to switch languages. By moving the languages to a more prominent location on the top of the page, we’re making them easier to find. While we introduce a click to get to the languages, this time is comparable or shorter than the time it would take to scroll down to the list of languages in the previous version (read more here).
Why is limited width the default?
Currently, the limited width is the default on all wikis using the Vector 2022 skin. However, for users who prefer to use the site in full width, we have created a preference as well as a persistent toggle available in the bottom right corner of the page, which allows you to turn the limited width off. Read more about the benefits of the limited width.
Why did the ToC change?
We encourage you to take a look at our documentation around the new table of contents, and specifically around its usage. In our A/B test, we learned that the new ToC is used up to 50% more than the previous one. It's also displayed on pages with fewer than 4 sections. We're currently exploring options for more configuration of the new ToC.
Why do certain gadgets no longer work?
We will gladly help the technical volunteers with adjusting the gadgets and user scripts. In principle, since these tools have been created by volunteers without any specific requirements regarding the quality and compatibility with different operating systems, browsers, viewports, and MediaWiki versions, it is up to the volunteers to keep those working despite constant changes of MediaWiki. But we acknowledge that some gadgets and user scripts may be unmaintained, and some technical volunteers may be unsure about what exactly they'd be supposed to do. This is why we'll be happy to help if we have (1) links to the gadgets and/or user scripts requiring changes and (2) contact with technical volunteers, if they're active and willing to work with us on this code.
Why doesn't the skin look good on mobile devices? Why is editing on mobile more difficult than with legacy Vector?
This skin, just as legacy Vector, was not designed to be used on mobile devices. While it may be working well on tablets, for phones, we highly recommend using the mobile web version with Advanced Mobile Contributions enabled. (The mobile web software is being improved, and you may find it more useful than a couple of years ago. For example, our colleagues are working on the moderation tools.)
Our skin addresses the need for responsiveness (by different behaviors of side menus, for example) but in full. For technical reasons, the issue of making the skins fully responsive goes beyond Vector 2022 and this project.
Why can't logged-out users choose between skins?
Our answer is similar to the one above – logged-out users have never had this option, and changing it is not part of this project. Vector 2022 makes the interface more useful for readers, which is proven by our data. Those individuals who don't use accounts and would like to keep the current default will need either to create an account (this is the recommended way) or use browser plugins.
That said, we encourage everyone to subscribe to our newsletter. Later this calendar year, we may start working on settings allowing individual users to adjust the interface even more. Your feedback will be most appreciated.
Is the skin stable enough?
Yes, it has been stable since this time last year. Since then, we have talked to English Wikipedians and improved some technical details, mostly addressing the needs and ideas of experienced editors. Chinese Wikipedia is among the last ones to get Vector 2022 as the default.
Why aren't there more colors?
This idea has been raised by some volunteers on different wikis. We understand that they may prefer more colors, but we don't have data indicating that more colors would improve the usability. In the next few weeks, we will perform a test (learn more here) and it is possible that in July, the interface would be less white. That said, we'd like to confirm that this skin is ready to use, and these possible changes will not make it significantly better.
More questions are answered in our FAQ. Feel free to ask us for more details on this thread as well.
I'm the reader who left the previous comments, and IMO, the two WMF staff comments mean to me: "your concerns are your problems, and that won't stop us from pushing to deploy this skin as the default".
In key issues, you always use data (data from other communities) to defend your point of view, but you don't really listen to the concerns that people here talk about.
What a "great" idea to have someone who doesn't want to sign up to sign up to address his concerns?
Hi@SGrabarczuk (WMF)： I seem to be the only reader without an account commenting here (the previous IPs were all mine).
Personally, I've revisited my reasons against deploying the new skin, and I think the reasons are: 1) lack of option to switch to the old skin (which I think is disrespectful to non-account readers), 2) conservative sentiment, unwilling to accept changes, mistrusting new skins, and worrying about the increase in learning costs.
As much as I do hate new changes to switch languages, you can see I'm not trying to point out the problem with new skins this time, because I realized that if users like me who don't want to have an account at all can switch to the old skin for as long as they want, then I will not need to think about the new skin.
But reading the comments of other users here (since they all have accounts) I realize that their objections differ significantly from mine.
Their objections are mainly focused on: 1) distrust of WMF (in the past WMF directly exercised power without adequate communication with this local community), 2) insufficient understanding of the new skin, 3) conservative like me, unwilling to relearn to use a new skin, 4) Some technical concerns (these can be overcome, and you have provided multiple solutions above).
On the trust part, I think if you can actively respond to user concerns in this thread (if you don't understand, you can point out what you don't understand, and I'm sure someone will be happy to translate it for you), then I believe you can rebuild the trust between WMF and this local community.
In raising awareness and dispelling misconceptions about new skin. in addition to you repeatedly providing hyperlinks to the data, you should try to cooperate with translation volunteers like 暁月凜奈 and MilkyDefer to set translation goals and work on strengthening understanding, because when someone clicks on those links and finds that a lot of content on those pages is not localized and it's definitely not conducive to mutual understanding, although most of the users here can understand English well, it gives people a feeling that the project is immature and unfinished. Especially when you set a deployment date, this further fuels the distrust of this local community and WMF, because again the local community will feel that WMF is ignoring their concerns to force changes.
Regarding the third part, you can't just change people's minds, but the people who comment here, except me, all have accounts, which means they can switch to the old version skin at will if they want, so, you don't need to do a lot, you just need to keep telling people about the benefits of the new skin, I mean TELLING people directly, not through some untranslated hyperlink, so that more people will try and use the new skin, and eventually drive those conservative people to accept the change. you have to understand, you're a Community Relations Specialist, representing WMF, when you're talking about something, it's totally different when it's written in the books.
Regarding the fourth point, I have no suggestion, because you have done a good job.
One more thing, I know it's not your job, but maybe you can give it to a colleague who can handle it properly.
On Google Translate, when I translate Wikipedia in a desktop browser, Wikipedia shows the mobile page, this has been wrong for so many years that I even suspect that this is intentional. I tried to go to mediawiki to give feedback, but there needs an account, it is not suitable for me, I hope you can help, thank you.
I don't think it's a problem with Google Translate as there is no such issue on the 3rd party site where the wiki is deployed, it seems to me that Wikipedia does user-agent judgment and shows the mobile interface for it when it is judged to be from Google Translate. Google Translate will add 1.0 translate.google.com TWSFE/9.0 in the HTTP Headers and gzip(gfe) after user-agent. But thanks for your help.（我不覺得這是Google翻譯的問題，因為第三方維基站點沒有這種問題，在我看來維基百科通過用戶代理判斷，當用戶代理是Google翻譯時顯示移動界面，謝謝） 152.179.173.218（留言） 2023年5月7日 (日) 15:30 (UTC)回覆
But, I hate it. can anyone go to mediawiki and respond to this? I don't have an account there.（它不是一個錯誤，這是維基媒體故意的，誰可以去維基代碼那裡反應這個問題？）152.179.173.218（留言） 2023年5月7日 (日) 15:52 (UTC)回覆
Translation: It is true that Vector 2022 is both a step forward and backward, I will not repeat what has been said. I will analysis how Vector 2022 is UGLY.
The antonym of ugly is pretty. The prettiness of web design comes from the alignment, echo and consistency between elements. It comes down to ORDER.
For example, the legacy vector seperates content and non-content areas by a vertical blue line at page left, a horizontal blue line at page top, and another horizontal blue line at page bottom. The two areas have dramatically different background colors, non-content areas possess the top, left, and bottom of the page. While there is much, it is not chaotic.
The banner on the main page echos the old vector skin, making the visual more consistent, and echos the old skin.
Timeless. This skin's header is separated into three groups, where the search bar is in the middle, having the same width of the content area. Sitting in the middle and having consistent width makes the skin elegant. Also notice the color contrast between content and non-content areas.
Ok let's look at Vector 2022.
No obvious visual separator between areas. Althouth the main menu in the left bar has a different background color (#f8f9fa), its contrast ratio is merely 1.05, extremely dissonant.
It is great that the search bar is left-aligned to the left of the content area. But, the position of the right end looks arbitrary.
The sticky header sometimes appears and sometimes not. That is inconsistency. The search button jumps to the far left of the sticky header. That is another inconsistency.
When both the left and right sidebar appears, the left sidebar is wider than the right sidebar. The main content is therefore, not in the middle, but a little to the right.
Toggling on the limit-width mode, problems are just more:
Unaccountably strange low-contrast gray color.
When the right sidebar is collapsed, that place just remains blank. That is visual imbalance. If WMF really does not know what is a good design, go read the Golang book.
Any comparasion data provided by the developer themselves are unreliable. Perform a blind A/B test by an independent individual, and only such data, is convincing.
Oh, yes @SCP-2000, thank you for pinging me, and my apologies for not going back to you sooner! The engineers took a look and said this is a hacky solution that should be avoided by the communities, and not supported and discouraged by the team.--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年5月29日 (一) 13:16 (UTC)回覆
依據基金會的說法，一來是本站過往至今沒有讓 IP 用戶更換皮膚的選擇，二來存在技術限制，因而基本上不太可能有更換皮膚的功能（至少在短期內）。個人認為除了可建議 IP 用戶建立帳號以更改皮膚外，亦可同時建議使用瀏覽器插件，在不建立帳號的情況下也能更改皮膚。謝謝。--SCP-0000（留言） 2023年5月11日 (四) 10:35 (UTC)回覆
Thank you all for your feedback and the discussion so far. We noticed that some of you mentioned the changes in the visual separation of content from the background. This is also a topic members of other communities talked about, and the team has been discussing recently. The current version of the Vector 2022 skin has shown improvement in the organization of content by introducing a menu system that separates links by their purpose. But we are also working to make it easier for people to focus on the content and visually distinguish between the content and the navigation portions of the article. We have prepared a prototype which we will be testing in the next few weeks. This prototype:
Introduces visual separation between different portions of the page
Hello! Thanks @SCP-2000 for the question and thanks everyone else for the comments. We haven't made the change yet. We're drafting a longer message which, I hope, will clarify how we interpret the situation and how we would like to proceed. I hope we'll get the message finished within 24 hours. Sorry for a bit of a delay - it's mostly due to the time difference between Asia, Europe where I am based, and North America where most of the available team members are. Also, briefly in regards to what's happening in the meantime: we're not making any sudden movements, I'm subscribed to this topic, and I read all the comments. Thank you!--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年6月5日 (一) 21:46 (UTC)回覆
I believe we lack specialists of the MediaWiki API. A bunch of our code are written years back, using very dirty hacks. The technical debt is heavy. MilkyDefer2023年6月9日 (五) 05:35 (UTC)回覆
關於翻譯WMF內容的一些想法
@SGrabarczuk (WMF)： People who have read my previous translations may have noticed that the Chinese I translated above is not a word for word translation, but to convey the meaning of WMF staff as much as possible.
One of the words I really don't like is "volunteer". WMF didn't write Wikipedia, we did, we should be called "part of the family" instead of being called "volunteers", which sounds like "temps/free labors" people who can be dumped at any time.
I understand that WMF has always referred to community members as volunteers, but that word does not represent us. It should be noted that we do not work for WMF, we work together for the idea of a free encyclopedia that WMF hopes, because we share the same ideals with WMF, the people here and WMF are collaborators, family members, not temporary workers or free labors.
I hope that WMF can truly talk to the community on an equal footing, instead of treating people here as free labor to realize the ideals of WMF. When that kind of thing happens, you don't need to say "dear community member" because you are a family member here, so your proposal will not be seen as trying to break something, but to bring about improvement.
So, try to be a part of this place instead of standing in a privileged position and talking to people here, respect doesn't come from how much "dear" you use, but your position.
Thnak you. 75.127.205.91（留言） 2023年5月11日 (四) 10:41 (UTC)回覆
Thanks for your translations and your comment, 75.127.205.91. I respect and appreciate that you're translating to convey the meaning rather than word to word.
You're raising an interesting point. I come from the editorial community myself (Polish Wikipedia, specifically), and I must admit, this is the first time I see someone criticizing the term volunteer using these arguments. I'm wondering if more people have similar feelings about the word "volunteer".--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年5月12日 (五) 21:36 (UTC)回覆
I think most people here will not be dissatisfied with the word "volunteer", and there is nothing wrong with using this word in the Chinese context. Please don't feel sorry for that.--BlackShadowGSlava Ukraini!2023年5月13日 (六) 07:19 (UTC)回覆
Thank you @BlackShadowG. I use this term to mean "a person who takes part, does some effort and spends some time, without being paid". There is an interpretation going in the exact opposite way to the one presented above: since most communities' members are volunteers, their time and presence is more precious, because they have less time to offer and more options to choose between (articles to write, discussions to take part, other pages to edit, some projects to coordinate, etc.).--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年5月29日 (一) 14:10 (UTC)回覆
We, the Web team at the Wikimedia Foundation, wanted to share an update about the timing of the skin change we've been discussing here and address the comments you all have raised in response.
First, we are postponing offering the Vector 2022 skin by default at zh.wiki for the time being. We hope that we can work with you all to ensure we accurately understand the range of technical issues you perceive with the skin.
With the above in mind, below is a list of the technical issues we've seen mentioned in the conversations thus far.
As a next step, can you all please review these issues with the following questions in mind?
What (if any) issues are currently missing from the table below?
What issues below need to be edited/clarified/expanded so that they more accurately describe what you are all experiencing?
Zooming out a bit, once we come to a shared understanding of the issues you all perceive/have experienced with the Vector 2022 skin, we're thinking we can decide what – if any – of these technical issues require fixing before the Vector 2022 skin can be made available to everyone by default.
A small note – we would like to confirm again that any logged-in user may choose a different skin at any time. This is done by choosing a different option in Preferences.
Issues
ID
Description
Phabricator ticket/Status
1
NoteTA (instead of a standard tab like the one for Discussion or Read, unformatted icons are displayed)
Note: you'll notice that the table above intentionally excludes comments and concerns related to the basic design of the skin (for example the separation of the page tools menu and the site-wide tools menu, the location of the table of contents, or the location of the language switcher). This is because that part is fully stable and we will not be able to reconsider it. We have also tried to address and clarify this part of the concerns in our comment above.
We acknowledge this response may not satisfy everyone. We want to communicate how we're thinking about this clearly, and we're interested in continuing to hear your thoughts. Let us know if you have any questions or concerns. Thank you again for your feedback and help! SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年6月14日 (三) 17:21 (UTC)回覆
@SGrabarczuk (WMF): I can clarify item 6 if the translator fails you: it means to indent by one single Chinese character (which is wider than a Latin character). I hope this information helps.--碟之舞📀💿2023年6月15日 (四) 06:12 (UTC)回覆
Thanks @Diskdance. I'll ask my colleagues if the indent is indeed of the width of a Latin character, in which case it would better be adjusted to the script here, or is it "just" a fraction of em, regardless of any script character width.--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年6月15日 (四) 13:15 (UTC)回覆
@SGrabarczuk_(WMF)： It can be adjusted simply by editing site css files. Nothing is broken. It's just an interface preference issue and should be changed through community concensus instead of site configuration. ——魔琴 [ 留言貢獻新手2023計劃 ] 2023年6月15日 (四) 13:36 (UTC)回覆
Right, right, @魔琴. Perhaps that's the better approach for you to introduce this change locally. I'll talk to the team anyway, because I'm curious if there's anything that could be done on our side.
After some consideration, I think that originally, for the basic site configuration, the indentation size had nothing to do with the font size.--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年6月15日 (四) 17:15 (UTC)回覆
Thanks for your effort. It's just that I think indent based on character size should look better. I wonder how ja and ko wikis think of it. ——魔琴 [ 留言貢獻新手2023計劃 ] 2023年6月15日 (四) 17:28 (UTC)回覆
The main issue we've noticed so far that needs fixing is the overlap of the conversion notice with the width toggle (#7), both available at the bottom of the page. We would recommend either revising the gadget or using the width toggle only after the banner is dismissed.
We also wanted to note that, with the new table of contents, users can access the top of the page (by selecting the Beginning 序言 link) and the bottom (by accessing the bottom section of the ToC) throughout their reading experience. This might make the top/bottom of the page gadget redundant. (#8) However, it's up to you as the community of this wiki to decide whether the gadget will still be necessary.
”
#3: It's just that using addPortletLink and jQuery to add something into #p-personal won't automatically add the same things into #p-personal-sticky-header. User:SunAfterRain has written a gadget to fix this: User:SunAfterRain/js/Vector2022StickyHeaderAutoCopy.js
#4: Explained in #wikipedia-zh
#6: Being proposed on the VP/T.
#9: Need a .trim(). (After the closing tag of #ca-nstab-main a the v22 HTML adds a \n thus nstab.child.text() becomes "條目\n" instead of "條目".)
Reproducing item #2: You will need to have "patrol" right, so that gadget (MediaWiki:Gadget-PatrollCount) will appear in your preferences. Select and enable that. A new link is added to top right corner (in vector 2022 it is folded in the user submenu), hovering on the link will show a list of new pages on the fly. That hover effect is broken. --MilkyDefer2023年6月16日 (五) 09:00 (UTC)回覆
Also, I'd like to ask everyone involved in this discussion to take a look at the table above and confirm if the recent changes are in the desired direction. Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年6月16日 (五) 11:56 (UTC)回覆
I'm using v10 and the portal link is slightly moved left because of the Growth Project and the UTC gadget, but the hover menu is still there. So I think it's working as designed. Just like what I have said before, the gadget should be rewritten. Since it's still functional (id est, we can still use the script to go to Special:NewPages and see the hover menu despite its weird behavior), I don't think that's a major obstacle to changing the default skin. ——魔琴 [ 留言貢獻新手2023計劃 ] 2023年6月16日 (五) 12:22 (UTC)回覆
A comment for the humans to know what to expect and for the bot not to archive this discussion too soon: I'm going on a one-week holiday. I'll continue talking here in the week of July 17th. Thank you [humans :D] for your understanding! SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年7月8日 (六) 10:30 (UTC)回覆
People in this thread can't see elephants: the only IP reader to complain about here so far
Over the past few months, I have followed this thread, actively participated in discussions, and even helped translate some content to help understanding between WMF and the local community.
I'm seeing a shift where most of the registered accounts discussed here start out knowing nothing about the new skin, and get to know the new skin, and then move on to trying to troubleshoot future issues they may have after the skin is deployed.
But to my regret, after months of discussions, I'm still the only IP reader in this thread (all previous IPs comments are from me, I changed IPs many times during this time). I'm glad that our community of editors has made progress, but I'm very sad not to have a second reader join this discussion. I must say that most of the editors here are small persons who think they know everything, but the fact is that they know nothing, because they cannot represent the most important user group of Wikipedia -- Readers. I can't speak for the readers, although I seem to be the ones speaking here, but I can't speak for them.
I ask everyone in this thread: expand the scope of this thread to the most important user group of Wikipedia -- readers.
The suggested method is: launch a banner on all pages of the Chinese Wikipedia, asking readers and more editors to join our discussion.
We can decide what to do going forward as more readers join our discussion, because this change most directly affects the readers of Wikipedia, they do not have the right to choose the skin, but at least they have the right to discuss, and the lack of their views is parochial, and that cannot be called consensus. If after enough discussion most people in this thread support deploying skins, then we start discussing when to make this change. Before that, I don't think anyone in this thread has a right to represent their choices.
I hope my proposal can be adopted. The choice of changing the skin is not only in the hands of the editor, but more in the hands of readers + editors + WMF. Thanks. -- Translated by/翻譯來自：71.246.22.59（留言） 2023年6月20日 (二) 17:27 (UTC)回覆
Hello, anonymous user :) First of all, thank you for your involvement and especially thanks for the translations!
You’ve raised a good point - readers and their opinions matter. In principle, they should be at least taken into account, and invited to our discussions when possible.
You’re familiar with the skin, and I presume you’ve also read the more detailed information in documentation I’ve linked to. I’m wondering, what do you think about the fact that readers were invited when we were building out and testing the earliest mockups, and then the skin, feature by feature? (Here are some reports.) Or what about us monitoring the usage statistics since 2020, when the earliest version of the skin was introduced in the first batch of pilot wikis? I’m curious what you’re missing now that wasn’t covered/provided in the previous phases.
I believe you would also be interested in taking part in a broader, more general discussion my colleagues and I will start later this year. It will concern the improvements to the software-related decision-making. We’re wondering what needs to change for different groups to be more involved. We haven’t started anything and I don’t have any links to share yet, so just bare in mind this topic is on the horizon, and feel invited :)
Thank you again for your continued participation in our discussions on the deployment of the Vector 2022 skin here on zh.Wikipedia.
In our last conversation, we identified nine distinct issues which you identified as a concern that should be addressed prior to deployment. Since then, we have been able to resolve the majority of these concerns. For the remaining ones, we would like to ask for your continued support; particularly in updating necessary gadgets to the new skin. We believe that this process can continue both before and after the deployment of the skin. We will provide support and answer your questions regarding these fixes, but the changes will need to be made by editors of this wiki.
With these issues resolved, we plan to continue with the deployment of the Vector 2022 skin on Wednesday, August 9 here on zh.Wikipedia. Also, we would like to change the default skin on the following Wikipedias: Estonian, Cantonese, Min Nan, Wu, Classical Chinese, Old English, Hakka, Min Dong, and Gan. We've started discussions there already.
Please let us know if you have any remaining questions around the skin and the deployment. Once again - thank you for your continued feedback and for helping us make the skin even better. SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年7月27日 (四) 00:15 (UTC)回覆
"As long as the current Vector 2022 skin still adopts the all-white design, we prefer disabling the limited-width mode by default. Just as what enwiki did." Translated.
Hey, thanks @SCP-2000 for this question. You'll find detailed information about the A/B test in T335379.
In a nutshell, though: the first results were odd. Page views went unbelievably up, but edit rates went drastically down. We decided not to deploy Zebra just yet, and work on it more instead. After additional analysis, it seems that Zebra works better for larger screens, but worse for smaller screens. Clearly, more work will be needed. Perhaps these would be some design changes. Since we're still trying to understand what we've got, we haven't posted an update about it yet.
Regardless, Zebra is about the look, but not about the functionality. Meaning, it doesn't change how the skin works. This is why we would like to deploy Vector 2022 as it is now. After some time, we may introduce Zebra, too, but that should be a different decision with a different timeline.
Hello @Z7504, I understand that seeing us not strictly following your personal opinion is saddening. But why are you saying that we aren't taking emotions seriously? We have delayed the deployment, and spent more time doing technical fixes. Wouldn't you agree that this is an example of hearing the community and following the volunteer's opinions?
On a side note, it's particularly difficult for me to understand what you mean by the "dictatorial community". If your take is that the participation of readers was insufficient, then I wanted to assure you – decisions about the new skin were made based on tests and comments from both readers and editors.
Regarding the option for logged-out users to choose a different skin: that was never possible. They didn't have any alternative to the downsides of the old skin, either. Again, I do hear the concern. Not everyone likes this interface. They are indeed in a more difficult situation than the majority which benefits from the improvements.
您好! The Vector 2022 skin is now the default across zh Wikipedia. All logged-out readers and editors will see this skin, and that all logged-in readers and editors who had Vector 2010 as their skin were switched to the new one. Thank you for your questions, feedback, and time dedicated to this project. It has helped make the skin better for all readers and editors!
If you would like to turn the skin off or switch to a different skin, you can do so from the "switch to old look" button in the main menu (left sidebar), or from the "Appearance" section in your preferences.
If you see any issues, or are hearing about problems or confusion from others, please reply here and let me know so that the team can fix them.
If you are new to the skin, explore the project page. For general questions, you can refer to the FAQ or ask here.
The work on the interface will be continued. Don't hesitate to share more comments. If you decide to try the skin out, consider trying it for at least one week prior to deciding whether to switch to one of the older skins. It usually takes a few days to begin feeling comfortable with the new interface. That said, if you are unsatisfied, you may switch to any of the other skins at any time.
Hello @ZhaoFJx. The button for increasing the width only appears on screens wider than 1400px. On narrower viewports, using the button wouldn't make any difference. Another option to make the content area wider is to hide any of the side menus. I hope that helps!--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年8月21日 (一) 10:30 (UTC)回覆
@SGrabarczuk (WMF)：Sir, I believe the designing philosophy of Vector 2022 is a much better than previous ones and the new skin has a much better potential. Yet unfortunately, the current version of Vector 2022 is somewhat buggy and unfriendly to end user, as can be seen from other users' feedbacks before. Not to mention in English Wikipedia (and many other Wikipedias) the Wikidata item link has bounced from left hand side to the right hands sides "Tools" menu, which brings a lot confusion to many end-users (espcially those who switch between many different Wikipedias as at the point they all go on different settings), just on the first day of the current deployment in Chinese Wikipedia, it is apparent to everyone that the T.O.C. bar is way too wide, and the text size is unfriendly at least to elders. Such predictable issues (had there been an mutilingual team in the designing group with basic foreseeablity) should have been eliminated before initiating any public testing, or the beta-testing would be not benefitial to but instead a torture of the general public. Again, I really appreciate your wonderful efforts in designing a new interface with such revoluntionary characteristics and look forward to a adequate version of it to be rolled out. --173.68.165.114（留言） 2023年8月9日 (三) 00:30 (UTC)回覆
Hi! I believe the table of contents font size is the same as the content font size (0.875em = 14px). To check that, open Wikipedia in the incognito mode and ?safemode=1 to the URL. As I wrote, we're just starting a new project about font sizes. So far, we've done some exploration (T313828).--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年8月21日 (一) 10:53 (UTC)回覆
WMF的設計文檔里甚至連《Effects of Chinese character size, number of characters per line, and number of menu items on visual search task on tablet computer displays for different age groups》都沒有提及，40至75個拉丁字符在南亞東南亞和東亞的文字中完全沒有相應概念，更沒考慮過中文字號問題。當然人家也不是沒有裝作研究過亞洲文字，完全用英語寫成的《印度時報》被說成是「約100個印地語字符」，而後提了一句WHO中文文檔每行有46個「漢語字母」（Chinese alphabet, sic），這是生活在平行時空嗎……所以該「業界對行長的研究結論」本身就是殘缺不全的，沒立起來就不需要駁倒。--173.68.165.114（留言） 2023年8月11日 (五) 05:32 (UTC)回覆
Hello @Chu Tse-tien. Thank you for your criticism. Because of this, I feel we may explain things that aren't clear for more people. You have raised many points, and first, I'd like to address the last one.
In most cases, software change is not like Harry Potter books (with this hype and excitement not letting go to bed). It is a standard, confirmed by research, that shortly after a software change, user's satisfaction drops. Only after some time, like one week of regular use, satisfaction may go back to the previous stage, or be higher. There are also other things, like people are more likely to give negative feedback than positive feedback, focus on their individual feelings more than on cold statistical data, and when they see contradicting information, they tend to trust information they agree with.
This is not to say we make changes perfectly, or that we're patronizing. Oh, no, we don't, and we seek actual partnership. We didn't include your community as early as French Wikipedians, for example, and you experienced a sudden everything-at-once change instead of a long step-by-step process. As I wrote below, our approach with the next project is different.
Reply: let's work together on typography! (and clarifications)
Hello again,
Thank you for the new comments. I was really glad to read many of them, because the general line of thinking fits our plans perfectly! I've also addressed a few more detailed issues:
[Typography, readability, font size, width of the table of contents]
The project for improving the skin was about changing the arrangement and functionality of features. It means that early on, we decided to focus on the search widget, table of contents, or placement of the menus. We were not working on the text settings.
Our new project, though, will be exactly about font size, line height, and various adjustments to make the reading experience better. Learn more about it on this page. (My apologies, it's only in English because it's still a draft.) We will specifically be looking at customizing font sizes based on script, user preferences, and the needs of individual language communities. We are looking at different scripts from the very beginning, and we're particularly interested in Chinese.
When I'm back home from Wikimania in Singapore (last days of August/early September), we'll invite you as the entire zhwiki community to work with us on this project from its earliest phase. Hopefully, by that time, we'll have some prototypes for you to give feedback on.
The issue with the too wide column for the table of contents for article headings is interesting. It may be tricky to reduce the width for the sake of articles because, as we can see here, in discussions, the headings are much longer. Nevertheless, we'll look into it. Follow us on T343972. One thing to consider is retaining the visual balance on pages that have longer headings (such as this talk page)
[Preview page alignment]CuSO4, does this ticket reflect what you're experiencing? When you see the preview aligned to the left, can you see the table of contents either in a column or next to the page title?
[Language switcher]惠龍, thank you for noticing the glitch with the loading of "suggested languages"! I've filed a bug report: T344028.
[Wikidata item] I understand that at first, having links moved around is confusing. We did this to make a clear distinction between the links related to one page and the ones related to wiki. That's why "What links here", but also the Wikidata link, have been moved. For quick usage of the Wikidata item links, we would recommend pinning the new tools menu to the right hand side of the page. This will allow the menu to appear expanded at all times. The pinning will also persist across pageviews. (Meaning, if you pin the menu and open the website in a new tab, you'll see the menu pinned).
[Banners]Vocal&Guitar, as you may have noticed, now, both logged-in and logged-out users can see banners informing about the change. Both banners link to the page 維基百科:Vector 2022.
I hope this reply covers most issues. Perhaps I'll see some of you in 新加坡? I'll also take a look at your discussions on Telegram/Discord. Thanks again, SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2023年8月10日 (四) 23:53 (UTC)回覆
Hey @SCP-2000, that's interesting, thank you for pointing this out! Our designer broke down that data by different scripts. So he must have taken this into consideration. But as I can see, this breakdown didn't make it to the wiki page. I'll ask him.--SGrabarczuk (WMF)（留言） 2024年3月6日 (三) 16:22 (UTC)回覆
Hello @SCP-2000, I'm happy to share that I do have an update :D
Ultimately, it will be possible for local users (specifically, admins, if I'm not mistaken) to change the settings (only by increasing the values) for the entire wiki. This will be possible via the Community configuration tool. It was originally built for newbies and mentors, but it's gonna be connected with other features as well.
In the meantime though, our team will be happy to make those changes for you.
However, if I'm not mistaken, it will not be necessary since our proposed new default ("Standard", 16px) is a bit larger than the current default on this wiki (15px). Am I forgetting about something?
We are currently in a discussion about which font size (i.e. 14, 15 or 16px) is better. That was why I asked if there is any data from communities using CJK characters, so that help us make a better decision. Anyway, we'll let you know if we reach the consensus.--SCP-0000（留言） 2024年3月30日 (六) 12:31 (UTC)回覆
舊版Vector（當前的默認設置）
Vector 2022
舊版Vector（當前的默認設置）
Vector 2022
囧rz……--BlackShadowG Slava Ukraini! 2023年4月19日 (三) 14:48 (UTC)
Strong oppose
完成 by Shizhao
